The Reality

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CBrady:
[QB]"The Reality" is this: This site is getting wierd!

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Grovesmitty....

Welcome to HOD. Hope you'll enjoy the interaction here.

But respectfully.... I completely disagree with you.

I'm sure you've seen Vince play in the Buddy Rich memorial video, and he cleans house with his "Jazz playing". Along with the Randy Waldman CD's that are just pure Jazz insanity.

I love and had heard plenty of the drummers in which you mention. I personally love the "communication" that Vince emits when he plays Jazz time. It's like no other really. While I still hold total respect for all the drummers you mentioned as the guys that brought us traditional styles of Jazz, Swing, Bop, etc.

I guess I would, as I'm sure Vince would get really pissed if somebody told me I was an insult to Jazz. That is rubbish.

Just because most of the recording or live dates Vinnie does isn't "Jazz", doesn't mean he can't "communicate" at a level very few could even ever achieve.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Perhaps my definition of jazz is different than everyone else's, but I define it as improvisation over form. But that's just me.
Listening to jazz from the fifties and sixties may be nostalgic and a great learning tool, but for the most part, it bores me to tears. For that matter, I think MOST music bores me to tears. I can't remember the last jazz (never mind rock or pop) record I bought that moved me significantly. Pat Metheny's latest is pretty good - and I quite like that Scofield record with Stewart on drums, but for the most part, I think jazz is sick and needs resuscitation.

I think Vinnie Colaiuta is one of the greatest improvisers of all time, and his musical vocabulary speaks to me in a way that the supposed 'fathers of jazz' do not (as do Jack De Johnette & Erskine).

Not to be insulting but I have to agree with JM. Who's to say that jazz as an artform can't progress. Does every "Jazz Drummer " have to sound like Philly, Max, Tony, Elvin, etc... Vinnie really has brought something unique to the table that is new and refreshing. His style isn't a throwback to the Jazz Masters of the past but is more of a progress of jazz to come. He may in fact be ahead of his time with what he is doing in the drumworld altogether. Many Jazz Critics didn't think of Buddy Rich as a true "Jazz Drummer" either but that's because he didn't play the expected fills and keep time like the jazz snobs of the time wanted to hear. He was obviously ahead of his time since his style has yet to be duplicated (although Louie gave him a good run for his money!). The present state of drumming clearly shows that the lines of style are becoming blurred. Horacio can swing his ass off while doing a left foot clave, Vinnie can play a country tune and add a fusion lick that works, Dennis can play a 1/2 time shuffle while doing John Bonham type foot patterns,etc. This doesn't mean that playing a traditional style of any kind of music is not valid, it just means that guys like Vinnie can and should be accepted as multi-style musicians with a unique voice. I would think that is the goal of any well rounded drummer, right?

Vinnie is one of the few drummers who can play jazz and rock and sound authentic in each. The comment on Vinnie not having the language like others is a bit off. Jazz is a collective improvisational experience. Keep good band time and being sensitive to others is key. Vinnie can do that. You don't have to copy what people did in order to play jazz. It's sad that people think you have to play a Max Roach lick in order to be welcomed into the jazz family.

The notion that Vinnie can't play, or is not as good as others jazz is wrong. He is a very accomplished drummer. He can get the job done.
Put in a in a situation where he has to play ding dinga-ling, and he will sound great.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 02:19 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]</font>

Jesus Wynton Marsalis is needed in this situation.

Jazz is not simply improvising over a form. Jazz as Groovesmitty said, and as I have said in here, is a language. It's not just spangalang. And it has NOTHING to do with independence and Jim Chapin. Baby Dodds had hardly any jazz ride independence.
It's musical. Everything Groovesmitty stated was elementary. And in jazz music, you have to know the language before you make it your own. Just because someone's a genius drummer, and creative, DOES NOT mean they play jazz. Vinnie can solo over straight no chaser for days, it still wouldn't be jazz. I guess everyone has their own idea of what they think jazz is in this day and age. On the drums this is what I think it is as most famous jazz artists would agree:

1. Having great swing time and ride cymbal feel where you can feel the 2+4 in the time without the hi hat, and having a dark sounding ride that compliments acoustic instruments.

2. Knowing all the melodies and harmonic progressions to every song in the American song book. Every song.

3. Knowing "key" melodic question and answer phrases created by the jazz forefathers, otherwise known as quote's and line cliche's. Some of these demand accent and phrases from the drummer after they are played. Every jazz drummer knows and responds to these.

4. A jazz drum sound. Drums with an open tuning, including the bass drum, to coincide with the acoustic bass. Drum sizes vary.

5. A jazz vocabulary. A knowledge of how to communicate in jazz. Not in music in general. JAZZ. Knowing why musicians like Bird and Dizzy played what they played and being able to transfer that to the drums. Knowing when a soloist will leave a hole and knowing how to fill it. Comping with the left hand in accordance to the soloist.

6. Playing brushes. Getting that wide sound when playing a ballad. Having at least 3 brush strokes for ballads. playing a brush solo by sweeping only. Playing up tempo swing at 420.
Soloing with brushes over a very slow ballad.

If a drummer can't do the above with ease, they don't play jazz.
Even modern players like Paul Motian, Jack, and Ersko can go back to the roots above.

There's a difference between getting the job done, and being a jazz drummer. Of course V.C and many other great drummers who aren't jazz drummers can merely get the job done and throw in some amazing creative rhythms. Doesn't mean its jazz. Getting the job done is not being true to the only real American art form.

You know, playing at the Buddy Rich MSC , does not mean that one is a jazz drummer. That was blow fest. A drum clinic. It wasn't jazz drumming. The only jazz drumming that night was by Steve Arnold, Louis Bellson, and Steve Gadd. And Gadd being out of his element, at least tried to stay true to the art.
Like Groove said. Jazz is an art form. You can't just play some sick rhythms over a form, and call it jazz.

Jazz is not a free music. It's a language, and if you don't know the language and are able to improvise using the language within a song form. You're not playing it. Even when Jack goes off on some free form drum solo, you can still hear elements of Max Roach and Elvin Jones.

And I really do think saying certain players are fluent in an art form that takes a lifetime to master is an insult. I would never come in here and say " oh, I saw Jeff Hamilton play in a rock band and man, he was really laying down a behind the beat pocket like Porcaro's and playing over the bar line figures like Vinnie". For anyone to say that Vinnie can play jazz and sub in the late Ray Brown's Band for Jeff Hamilton, is a bit of a sacrelig. And essentially, that's Wecks mechanic is saying. Brown is not with us, but even he was, that would never happen.
Have respect for the drummers who spend their careers mastering this art, and don't say that even the best of the best of modern music like VC, not knowing any of the language can come in hang authentically. No way. Never.

Maybe this is kinda like a difference in opinon when people describe what they see as being jazz.
My personal definition is kinda like drumming sorta persons... i think its anything(well, anything really is a bad word but i guess what im trying to say is that the shape can vary) thats improvisational over a form. I dont think its strictly swing and i dont think that just because you cant play a brush solo with sweeps only, you cant play jazz. ( or the gear thing for that matter... having dark cymbals or having tuned up but not muffled drums.... what about big-band? isnt it better to use brighter cymbals? and what about say zach danzieger with wayne krantz? isnt that considered jazz? a) that sounds nothing like miles or coltrane, and b) his kick has a hole in it!)

I agree that jazz is certainly not about teh chapin book and just because you can play the chapin book doesnt mean you speak jazz.

What I cant really agree on is that jazz is such a narrow genre the way you some of you seem to put it. I have the Laboriel Mathieson Landau and Colaiuta live at the potato CD and when i saved it on the computer it came out as jazz. I thought it was fusion... but when you think about it fusion is like rocky jazz isnt it? My Weckl Synergy CD also came up as jazz. Smooth jazz is called smooth JAZZ even though it doesnt sound anything like parker or dizzy. My point is that arent you guys arguing that hes not good at a particular sub-group of jazz instead of hes not good at jazz period?

I think Vinne can play jazz. it maybe different from what it sounds like when max roach or whoever plays, but its just a different kind of jazz. It might not be his best genere or whatever but I really do think he sounds good when he plays.

I thought that Buddy Rich scholarship thing was some of the most bad-ass playing ive ever seen. It really hit me super hard in my mind... thats what I want to be like! what energy he has! I dunno what you guys think about if its authentic big-band or what because honestly i havnt listend to much big band ever.... but i thought that was killer no matter how you tried to categorize his playing. He comes from a different era of music than say Sonny payne or Buddy Rich or whoever. He probably doesnt approach the music the same way as them... but i think he kills on whatever he plays. To me it doesnt matter if he dosent swing like art blakey or whatever. Vinnie is Vinnie and hell play the music like how he plays it.

I know you guys arent insulting him by saying he cant play jazz, but the wording just sounded wierd to me thats all. I mean for those of you who think his jazz isnt authentic... the people who hire him probably think hes good at what he does... and also, no ones forcing him to play it. He doesnt have to play swing type jazz if he doesnt want to.. and he wont play latin music if he doesnt want to . he doesnt have to ... so in a sesne i dont think its really a minus if he says he cant play these styles. I mean who cares? Hes super great anyway!

English is my first language along with japanases... but now im starting to think that i suck at it... am I making sense it all? haha

(by the way when reading about the whole click thing i was wondering,,, but is it just me or is there one part in the song that goes "heavy clouds but no rain" on the ten summoners tale album that is kinda off when the band stops when Sting says "heavy clouds but no rain" and vinnie does the pick up on the hi-hat? I thought it was like just a little off and thought it was wierd. or are my ears broken?

-GoMan

Here's my twopennorth from across the pond - hope it won't rattle too many cages!? Let me start by saying that this forum, and Steve's site, have, for me ,replaced the drum mags which I used to devour by the bucketload! The discussions, tips, and sheer relevance of the information contributed by the community is unparalelled - anywhere!
When I read and see so much detailed discussion and dissection in the minutest detail down to nanosecond delays ,of what is essentially an emotive art form, I feel a bit - don't know....frustrated? What I do know is that, for me at least, when a piece of music, or drumming, can make me go Whoaaaaa!, that's all that matters - the reaction.It can be the simplest groove tune,like Tempted ( Squeeze) or a driving big band ( my first love) - like Vinnie's tour de force with the Buddy Band...as long as it moves me, and either makes me want to dance ( not a pretty sight), or drum, or just nod my head like a peckin' chicken or whatever, then music's done its job for me.
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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
instead of being stubborn, listen up.
Nice.
Ya know, I really don't have a problem with anyone saying negative things about the drummers we tend to like more than others. I encourage discussion of all kinds. Plus, I'm a big believer in recognizing weakness as well as strengths in my favorite players.
What I do have a problem with is anyone expressing their opinion in a condescending tone (please...don't insult jazz. ). In a tone that insinuates that they are aware of information that is so obvious to them that anyone that doesn't agree is not as smart and doesn't see as clearly.
He doesn't nail the click, EVER.
That was funny. Continuing on I'll take "Ignorant Generalizations" for two-hundred Alex.

The sad thing is if your point was presented in a mature tone then maybe people would take you seriously. It's too late for that unfortunately so have fun reading the responses you get now, as opposed to ones you could have gotten had your post been presented more constructively.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 02, 2005 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Steve,

Your point is well taken, but, it seems to me that you might be inferring a level of sarcasm that was written but not intended. Perhaps it's not realistic to expect such an artful use of the language on a public drummers forum.

PS: SDK, I'm not as familiar with Vinnie's playing as many here. But, from what I have heard of his playing, I suspect that, if he doesn't play bop like Max, Elvin, Philly Joe, Art, Roy, etc., it's by choice. Just because Gonzalo Rubalcaba doesn't sound like Oscar Peterson doesn't mean he couldn't if he wanted to. Does any one doubt that Vladamir Horowitz didn't play the classics in the 20th century they way they were originally played in the 19th and 18th? Does anyone doubt that he could?

Vinnie is probably at that level of musicianship. Look, I'm not a big fan of Vinnie's swing feel. But, after hearing and seeing the level that he plays at, I wouldn't presume that the because he doesn't play swing the way I would best understand it, that he couldn't if he wanted to, or that my sense of swing is more legitimate than his.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

Hi!
Wow, Vdrummer stated in my introductory post,
a kind of apologetic comment about these heated posts.
I think peoples opinions combined with fact makes for
good discussion. Why should everything be positive all the time?
Music reflects life, and in life we have both positivity and negativity.
Joel, I don't think someone is out of line by defending the jazz tradition. Do you remember the Marvin Smith interview in Modern Drummer Magazine where he talked down about Weckl being called a jazz drummer? It was a famous dispute where Weckl actually phoned Smith to ask why he said that. That's a sensitive issue.
I'm an outsider looking in on this thread, and to be completely honest, from what I read, the Vinnie Colaiuta fans cannot accept the fact that Vinnie is not a jazz drummer. I can't fathom why. Most musicians especially from Vinnie's generation, have their "thing".
It's not an insult to say that. It's a simple observation. Vinnie is not in any jazz drummer history books or publications, and is not considered by jazz critics or jazz musicians to play that style. To use your phrase, I don't think "big balls" are required to defend a style of music you love, when it's being mis-represented. It was not a negative comment.
Why not turn this into an opportunity to learn about jazz, rather than discrediting the comment. The members talking about Max, Philly, and Art had a serious point. Pick up some of those albums, and then pick up some albums by their contemporaries like Lewis Nash, Jeff Hamilton, Kenny Washington and Jack DJ. You'll notice a language being spoken. Although they all play very different, there are levels of musical communication there. You would not get defensive if I said "Vinnie doesn't speak French" would you? Well jazz is a language, and although Vinnie uses many of the same figures as Tony Williams, he does not use the musical language of traditional jazz when he phrases and places them within the structure of the music. He probably doesn't have interest in it. The comment made, was not tactful at all, but it is very true. Any teacher of the art form of jazz would concur.
As far as the other concerning click and no click, I think that is all rubbish. Now, we're entering the realm of the man's element. He's one of the best in the world at recording modern music styles. Another observation.
Well, I think I'm ready for bed. It's almost 1am here.
It's great to have discovered this forum. I'm looking forward to haveing a place to to talk drums!
Thank you,
John